Robbie Carlton — Authenticity & Beyond (EP005)

Michael Porcelli: 00:00:05

Welcome to Relational Conversations, the podcast where we talk about relationships and communication and all the ways those are intertwined. And I'm your host, Michael Borcelli, and I'm here with my good friend Robbie. Welcome, Robbie.

Robbie Carlton: 00:00:20

Hello. Hello. Thank you. Good to be back.

Michael Porcelli: 00:00:23

Yes. Good to have you back. Robbie and I love talking with each other, and he's been a guest before. I'm sure he'll be a guest again in the future.

And we love talking about these kinds of topics with each other amongst many. And Robbie has his own podcast called the Sane and Miraculous. Did I get that right?

Robbie Carlton: 00:00:44

That's right, exactly.

Michael Porcelli: 00:00:46

And I recently heard a podcast that Robbie recorded. I can't remember what you entitled it, but the topic was similar to the topic we're going to cover today. More or less. Kind of the same topic.

Robbie Carlton: 00:00:59

Authenticity. Yeah. Mine was called Post Authenticity with a hyphen. Yeah. And we, you know, this is a topic I think you and I have explored together for years.

So your thoughts were definitely part of my, you know, the pool that I drew from for that podcast episode. So it makes sense now for me to come on here and discuss it with you.

Michael Porcelli: 00:01:26

Awesome. Yeah.

So part of this has been I want to frame our conversation as a kind of like, almost like a chronology or a recap of the evolving relationship that I've had with authenticity. And that, I think actually is not unique to me.

Robbie Carlton: 00:01:46

Mm.

Michael Porcelli: 00:01:47

There's common features of these different stages. Right. Like, and I want to start way kind of at the beginning, because authenticity is.

It's one of these buzzwords that appears in mental health areas. It appears in relationships or couples coaching how to have fulfilling relationships.

It also, it also even appears in the business world, like, authenticity. You want to be an authentic leader. You want to bring your whole self to work. So it's.

At least in recent times, it's been kind of a hyped up thing for a while now.

Robbie Carlton: 00:02:17

Right. Well, and it comes from, you know, I think it comes from existentialist philosophy in the mid 20th century and kind of early 20th century. Right.

I think that's. Those are the people that first got really interested in this idea. You know, I.

I don't know Heidegger that well, but I think Heidegger was interested in this. And. And anyway, I'm not gonna try and make up that I have a deep, deep philosophical background, but I think that's where it came from. And then. Yeah.

And then it seems like with the millennial generation, the millennials got very interested in it for whatever reason, that.

That it Moved from being like, initially like a niche philosophical thing and then into even 20 years ago, kind of like a niche psychological idea or not in terms of the world of psychology, people were interest and talking about it. But then in the last 20 years, as the millennials have kind of, you know, blossomed out into like the dominant generation of the culture it's become.

And also with social media and like, you know, one example of the, of the dominance is the, is the fact that almost every ad that you get now on YouTube or on any social media or anything is a fake unboxing or it's a fake product review by a fake influencer. Right.

Like, you get so many of these ads where it's like, hey, so I'm checking out this product as if it's just some random person, but it's like, no, no, that is a, a hired actor doing an ad. But they're the, the character they're playing is an authentic person having an authentic reaction.

Anyway, we're getting a little off track there, but yeah, just to say that it's, it's now just kind of central to the culture. Everybody's.

Michael Porcelli: 00:04:03

Yes, yeah. So we're going to talk about kind of how it plays out for you personally as an individual. Right.

Like, we're not going to talk about how to fake like you're authentic in order to be a better influencer, even though that is sort of out there. That's just us pointing out to the fact that, like, you know, this, this idea that authenticity sells in a way.

Robbie Carlton: 00:04:21

Yeah.

Michael Porcelli: 00:04:22

Whereas, like, sometimes these concepts become sort of like, hey, it's, it's almost like a substitute for good or virtue or something. When it's maybe a virtue, it's just not everything. And that's part of the story here is like, is to realizing the limits of it.

But we're getting ahead of ourselves. So at the beginning, I think people think I'm authentic. Like, what was that thing? How can I be anything other than who I am?

And if me being me is what authenticity means.

Robbie Carlton: 00:04:52

Right.

Michael Porcelli: 00:04:52

There's really nothing to do here.

Robbie Carlton: 00:04:54

Right, right. I'm wondering, even before we go into the stages, like, we're going to talk about a developmental model here.

I just kind of want to talk about what is a developmental model a little bit. And what characterizes a developmental model.

So a developmental model is different from types or something or states or other kinds of thing where it might be that there's one kind of person that's this kind of authenticity and one kind of person that's that you know, that it's a developmental model when there are multiple kind of modes and the modes have a sequence and that you never go backwards so that you never.

If once you've gotten to a certain mode, everybody that has had that mode has previously had some set of the modes and has never had some other set of the modes, that's what a developmental model looks like.

So if you've been at stage one and now you're at stage two, everybody at stage two has been at stage one, and nobody at stage two has been at stage three. So anyway, that's just me nerding out about developmental models. I think it's worth kind of characterizing what that is.

So that's what we're going to talk about.

Michael Porcelli: 00:06:08

Yeah, we're definitely using that kind of construct as a framework, as a structure in the background here.

And the other thing I want to say about the developmental models in general is what happens between them is something like a transitional phase or a moment where kind of like what was working before doesn't totally work as well as it used to. And you might even feel a little bit, like, confused, even though you previously felt clear about something. And then, right.

Some kind of, like, novelty starts to emerge, like new insights, a new self awareness. And then you start building up a new thing which is the next stage that's kind of coming. And it feels kind of exciting. It feels kind of exhilarating.

It almost sort of feels like, like, oh, now I get it. Previously I didn't get it, but now I get it, right?

And it's kind of like that's what the feeling of what it's like to go through one of these transitions.

So if you've ever had that kind of experience in your life, you've probably, I don't say necessarily guaranteed every time you've had that experience, it's a sign of a developmental model. But if you have gone through development to transition, it does feel like that, right?

Robbie Carlton: 00:07:23

Often, yeah, it feels like, yeah, exactly like, oh, now I get it, right? I, you know, and it's interesting because there's a naive version of that, right? Now we're getting deep into integral theory, right?

But there's a naive version of that, which is like, well, I used to be dumb, right? And now I'm smart. I used to be asleep and now I'm awake. Okay, well, but now I'm done.

Like, that stupid previous version of me was an idiot, but now I got it right? Like, you know, and I think it's funny, there's A. Well, anyway, there's a. Tangents we could go on there.

But then there's a more sophisticated thing that you can.

Michael Porcelli: 00:08:00

Yes.

Robbie Carlton: 00:08:01

Recognize, which is like, well, if that happened before, it's probably gonna, like, again. How? There's no. It's probably gonna happen again. There's, you know, there's no guarantee that I have finally arrived at the ultimate truth.

And in fact, it's pretty unlikely. And so it's much more likely that I'm at a new developmental stage, but that there are further heights to climb if I keep going and if I. Yeah.

Michael Porcelli: 00:08:23

Yeah.

And for people out there who are interested or take seriously, like, things like personal growth and development, you've probably encountered this or even experienced it yourself, you know, or read this kind of idea, and it is a little bit like, aha. Only forever, you're not, like, done. It's just gonna. It's gonna happen again. You just don't know when it's gonna happen.

But you're like, oh, I'm going through another one of. Especially if you've sort of, like, changed twice over along the same lines, then you're kind of like, okay.

Me thinking that, like, I finally figured it out is probably also naive. So there may be a little bit of that here. So developmental model, geek out. Let's call that part done. We'll bring it back if we need to.

Robbie Carlton: 00:09:02

Great.

Michael Porcelli: 00:09:03

So this first stage of authenticity often will feel like, hey, my metaphor here is if you guys.

It's an old cartoon called Popeye the Sailor man, which might be just a too old of a reference for the Internet age, but he had a saying where he would say, I am what I am, and that's all that I am. Right. Like, Popeye knows who he is, and he is who he is, and that's all that he is. And he's like, he just sort of is that way forever. Right.

People feel that way. You know, I know who I am.

Robbie Carlton: 00:09:31

Yeah.

Michael Porcelli: 00:09:32

People who like me the way that I am, they like me this way. Most people don't really get me, but the few people who do kind of get me, you know, I like some people. I don't like other people.

Some people like me, some other people don't like me. And that's just sort of it.

Robbie Carlton: 00:09:48

That's right.

Michael Porcelli: 00:09:49

That's just the way life is or something.

Robbie Carlton: 00:09:51

Right, Right. And what I think of here is that in the context of dating and the advice, just be yourself.

Michael Porcelli: 00:10:01

Right.

Robbie Carlton: 00:10:01

And the feeling of, like, what else would I do? What would be like, of course I'm Just being myself and then people getting cranky, like. But it didn't work. Like, I've.

All I've ever been doing is being myself. But I'm not, you know, I'm alone. Right. And so, yeah, this idea that the. There's nothing. There's no other option than to be yourself.

Michael Porcelli: 00:10:25

Yes. I mean, that. Yeah.

Robbie Carlton: 00:10:28

That.

Michael Porcelli: 00:10:28

That kind of be yourself advice doesn't work. Kind of if you're wanting something more here that. That you might even say is the beginning of that transition. Right?

Like, when you're kind of like, I just. Yeah, I am who I am. Like, Popeye, who cares? Right? Like, I can't. I can't be anything other than myself. What's the big deal? Right?

Robbie Carlton: 00:10:47

Right.

Michael Porcelli: 00:10:48

But then when it's almost like you get sick of yourself in some way or whatever, it stops working, right?

Robbie Carlton: 00:10:55

Which I. It stops working, which I think is, again, just a nerd out about developments again. I think always, like, development is hard.

Like, it's cognitively hard. It's emotionally hard. It's really. It's work. And so people only develop when the stage that they're at is not working.

Michael Porcelli: 00:11:11

Right.

Robbie Carlton: 00:11:12

Like, there's no other. Nobody develops for fun because it's not fun. And so. So I think that that's what happens is, like, you get to a point where you're like, well, I am.

I am who I am, but I am wanting things that are not coming to me just through this.

Michael Porcelli: 00:11:31

Exactly. So, you know, maybe if you've experienced this and this is what it was like for me, like, this idea that, like, I could become more authentic. Right?

And I'm like, okay, so then it's like, there's something that I need to do then, right? Like, it's not just already true. Right. Like, there's. That I can maybe peel back a layer. And so this.

This idea of, like, okay, so what the hell are these layers? Like, this is kind of what the second stage in our little journey here will feel like. All right, Well, I guess that there's.

I guess there's ways maybe I've internalized these social expectations from my upbringing, from my parents, or from school teachers, or from the culture at large. And, you know, maybe there's ways I feel like I really want to fit in. Like, I want to. I want to blend in or fit in. I don't want to stand out.

I want to be safe. I want to, like, make sure I'm, like, current with the latest trends or something. And then other times, people are like, I wanna. I wanna be better.

Than other people. I wanna be the best. I wanna like, stand out or I wanna like be different, like kind of counter to whatever the trend is. Right, right.

Either way is sort of like that in and of itself isn't necessarily being who you are. You're just sort of like either going with the programming or the counter programming. And you've internalized that and you think that's you.

And then you realize, wait a minute, that's a layer on top of something else. You see what I'm saying?

Robbie Carlton: 00:12:59

Yeah. Yep, yep, yep. It's.

Michael Porcelli: 00:13:01

Yeah.

Robbie Carlton: 00:13:01

In either case, you're reacting to some, some kind of external stimulus. You're, you're, you're deriving your identity from the world.

And, and, and either, like you said, either by conforming or by anti conforming, but in either case, like, you're conforming, like you're dominated by what's happening. Right.

Michael Porcelli: 00:13:30

I think people experience that often in relationship with their parents. Right. Like, I think if I'm not saying this is true for all children, but like a lot.

It's kind of like you're young and it's like, I want mom and dad to like me. I want to do. Am I being good? Did I do it right? Hey, how did I do? You know, like this kind of.

And then probably around the teenage years, like when you start to recognize the opinions or perspectives that your peers have about you. Right.

And you realize, oh, there's a bigger world out there, pop culture or whatever, you know, the media or something, then you go like, oh, yeah, okay, my parents are just lame or they're out of it. They're dumb. Now I'm going to do the opposite of like, what.

Robbie Carlton: 00:14:18

Right. I know, I know all of that might be, you know, that even kind of feels like a developmental model. So pre.

Michael Porcelli: 00:14:24

Right.

Robbie Carlton: 00:14:24

That stage zero and stage one of this is. Yeah, is. But in either case, you're kind of reacting.

I also want to add another piece in here which I think a way that the people express a kind of fixed identity. Like, what are we calling this stage? Pre authentic? You know, pre authentic or. Yeah, I don't know if there's. But let's call it pre authentic.

Like another version of pre authentic is kind of defense patterns that have grown up around trauma. Right. So like people.

So that's, you know, not exactly just reacting or conforming or anti conforming to cultural things, but it's more like I've been psychically injured at some point and I've developed a way of being in the world like, that protects the Psychic injury that prevents it from being aggravated, prevents it from being incapacitating. But what that looks like is, you know, some tightness, some defense, some aggression, some.

Something that comes, that's guarding a deeper layer of my being. So that I just want to also call out another kind of dimension of this. Pre. Authentic.

Michael Porcelli: 00:15:40

Yes.

Robbie Carlton: 00:15:41

Stage.

Michael Porcelli: 00:15:41

Yes. I mean, there is, There is something there. I mean, I don't know if it's quite the right metaphor, but the difference between like a wound and a scar.

Right. In a way, you know, scars do sort of last. But a wound doesn't necessarily need to fester.

But there is something about, like, in either case, recognizing that, like those problems maybe that you had, those injuries that you had, like who you are. The, the. The personality that you form around those things is in and of itself still just a response to circumstances.

It's not necessarily essentially who you are.

And, you know, the, the danger here is, like, you could sort of go to an authenticity cult and they're just like, whatever, get rid of all of the constructs of your personality and you need to just be an empty, like, canvas again, which is like your essence. And you can, I think, disrupt sort of healthy constructs that are part of who you are. I mean, personality in this sense is important.

It's just not fundamentally the core of who you are. Your personality, though.

And these defensive structures are serving good purposes, and you don't necessarily need to get rid of all of them in order to be authentic. But the process of going from pre authentic to authentic does feel like you go through and sort of question them.

What would it be like if I didn't do that anymore? Right. Like. Right.

Robbie Carlton: 00:17:12

And. And that you have more yet. That they're, that they're. That they're imbued with choicefulness to some extent. Right. That there's some amount of.

And now we're going into the transition. Right. Like, we're going in stage two here.

Michael Porcelli: 00:17:27

Yes.

Robbie Carlton: 00:17:27

But, yeah. That these, like, I. Fine. You don't get rid of every personality construct, every defense, every mechanism when you get to stage two.

Michael Porcelli: 00:17:38

Right.

Robbie Carlton: 00:17:38

But you, you become more aware of them and you become more able to put them down in a moment and. Or to recognize that they're there or to choose. Do I want to react in this way? Like, you know, I. At least some awareness. Right.

It's not just a completely. That's just who I am.

Michael Porcelli: 00:18:00

Right.

Robbie Carlton: 00:18:00

Like, of course, of course I got angry because. Because he did something that made me angry. Right. Like, but to, you know, like, that. That's the Kind of pre. And then. Yeah, anyway.

Michael Porcelli: 00:18:12

Yeah, yeah, totally. So my, My metaphor here. And you kind of brought up a metaphor like this in your. Your pod is the. The buried gemstone, right?

It's like there's this thing that you can't really fully see it, but it's beautiful and it's precious, but it's buried and you just need to uncover it and polish it up and then all the world will see your authentic self. Right. And the idea of this metaphor is that like, it's already there.

Robbie Carlton: 00:18:44

Yes.

Michael Porcelli: 00:18:44

And it's already solid and it's already mixed and you're just. The job is to just uncover. And I would say, like, my experience being in this phase two, stage two was like that, right?

It did really feel like, oh, here's a little crusty something that I could sort of like chip away and like, or polish off or dust it off. Be like, yeah, I don't have to be this way, right. Whether it's like, I don't have to be, you know, trying to fit in, right.

Or trying to go counter programming like we talked about. It's like, I actually can. Fascinating. Like, what's the real unique. And you know, then you start asking questions like, oh, yeah, like what.

What really would I want to do in a circumstance like this? Like in a way that feels more choiceful, like these kind of funny personal growth words. Right? Like more agency. Right.

Like, I don't know, maybe you tell me a little bit what stage two was like for you. Because it does feel really like I am becoming more of who I really am. That's what it feels like, right? To me.

Robbie Carlton: 00:19:56

Right. And that the work to be done. And you know, you said yourself whenever you set up this three stage model, right?

And then everybody's like, well, I want to do stage three and so let's jump over stage two. Or like stage two is dumb or whatever. And it's like. But it's really valuable. It's super valuable work to. That we do at stage two.

And I think that the work that we do at stage two is identify the ways we've been lying in, you know, in overt, but also in kind of subtle and much more often in kind of subtle ways where we've just been subtly hiding, misrepresenting, presenting some version of ourselves that we think is the one that should be presented.

So it's identifying those ways, coming into contact with what's underneath that, and then practicing revealing it to people that we're in relationship with, right? So it's a revealing It's a, it's. And so that's where your metaphor.

It's like you're lifting up the, you know, the dirt and the dust and you're revealing the true thing that's already there. And you know, and sometimes it's beautiful and sometimes it's ugly, but your job at stage two is just to reveal and to. And to become free.

Michael Porcelli: 00:21:26

Yeah.

Robbie Carlton: 00:21:26

Of the compulsion to hide.

Michael Porcelli: 00:21:31

Yeah.

Robbie Carlton: 00:21:31

Or to misrepresent.

Michael Porcelli: 00:21:33

Yeah.

Robbie Carlton: 00:21:33

So to me that's, that's the quality of stage two is. Of is. Yeah. And like you said, there's something there real solid, pre, kind of pre existing to be revealed, which is your authentic self. Right.

This is why, this is the authentic, the authenticity stage. Because it's, that's your authentic self. Is this one that, that you're revealing?

Michael Porcelli: 00:21:56

Yes.

Robbie Carlton: 00:21:57

And that when you reveal that and you know what's. The, what's true for me about that stage is it was. It freed up an enormous amount of energy.

Michael Porcelli: 00:22:11

Say more about that.

Robbie Carlton: 00:22:12

Like that I was suddenly right. Like that I was working really hard, didn't even know it.

Michael Porcelli: 00:22:18

Right.

Robbie Carlton: 00:22:19

To, to conform, to fit in and to, and to anti conform. I mean I was kind of always kind of an anti conformer. But like that, all of that was a huge amount of energy and it was exhausting.

And it was also like. Yeah. Leading to, you know, relationships not working the way I wanted to. Just feeling kind of bad.

Like, you know, I just, and, and so when I started to realize, oh, I don't have to pretend to feel differently than I feel then it, yeah. It freed up energy that I was using with all that pretending. And it also kind of, it, it.

This mantled a whole bunch of anxiety that if you're pretending to feel differently than you feel in a bunch of situations, there's this layer of anxiety that's the anxiety of like lying. Right. Even though, you know, and I use the word lying, people get really upset.

I, I got in a huge fight with some people recently where I was saying everybody lies. Like, everybody lies. And, and this one, you know, whatever it was in a context and somebody was very upset with that idea. She was like, I do not lie.

I just like, of course you do.

Michael Porcelli: 00:23:26

Right.

Robbie Carlton: 00:23:27

Not necessarily consciously, but you don't know.

Michael Porcelli: 00:23:30

Yes.

Robbie Carlton: 00:23:31

Right. You just don't know. Right. And this is a very kind of Jungian Freudian sense of, of, of psychology.

But it feels very true to me that there's these huge kind of underlying structures and movements going around and you can never totally understand your motivation anyway.

So just to talk about that anxiety like that when you are working in subtle ways to misrepresent yourself, there's an anxiety of the difference between your internal state and what. What you're hoping that people will see. When you release that and you're able to just not defend by.

By just being free to reveal whatever your internal state is, that a lot of that anxiety goes away.

Michael Porcelli: 00:24:15

Yes.

Robbie Carlton: 00:24:16

And so that is very liberating. And it's a very. And I think that is some of the gifts that come from stage two.

Michael Porcelli: 00:24:23

Yes. Yeah. Right. I think this is a little bit, you know, one of the things that's surprising about it is recognizing literally energy. Right.

It's like the amount your brain, your body, the calories that you're using, you don't really realize it until you start to like, try to wrap your mind over and do this self awareness thing. And like, why is it that when that sort of thing happens, I always do this and then that and that, you know? Yeah, I think this and then I think.

I'm not supposed to think that. Well, I definitely can't say it. So what I say instead of that, and it's almost like this little buried automatic program that just goes.

And you're like, that's a lot of extra steps.

You know, how many places in my life have I just installed these extra subroutines that are happening without me questioning them, that are like using up cycles of my brain power, you know?

Robbie Carlton: 00:25:21

Yeah, it's extra steps and it's extra stakes. Like, suddenly it's not just the stakes are not just whatever the stakes naturally would be in a given interaction.

There's also the stakes of making sure you don't get found out in a certain way. Right. Of making sure that people don't see the shameful interior. Right. So it just adds this layer of stakes that's also kind of intense.

I would love to, and I can go try and find one.

But I want to ask you first, do you have a specific example of this of like something that you saw or something that you learned it was okay to reveal?

Michael Porcelli: 00:26:01

Oh, man. I mean, a lot of these happen in some of these relationship workshops. Let me see if something pops in as we kind of talk about it.

Sometimes as I talk about the pattern of it, a specific memory of it will come. But yeah, it's a little bit like, you know, if I walk up to the woman facilitator and, you know what I mean?

Like in a workshop and there's like these women who are like being paid to actually Give you really honest feedback about how you really are coming across. Right. And this is one way that this type of thing happens in these workshops.

And some version of like, oh, I want her to think I'm masculine and attractive and interesting.

Robbie Carlton: 00:26:47

Right, Right.

Michael Porcelli: 00:26:49

And so then I'm like, I'm doing it, you know, and then, yeah, she's kind of like, what are you doing? And then it's like, that didn't work.

Robbie Carlton: 00:27:00

That didn't work. You presenting how masculine and confident and interesting you are.

Michael Porcelli: 00:27:07

Well, I mean, this is the, I mean, one interpretation of what's going on is like the, the female facilitators are actually attuned to these hidden layers that are kind of not totally, I'm not totally aware of. Right. Like, that's the conceit.

Robbie Carlton: 00:27:21

Right?

Michael Porcelli: 00:27:21

So, you know, but like, then it's kind of like, you know, the woman really does mean in this context. No, what really is going on? You can go on, like, try on another. Well, let me just like puff out my chest a little bit more. Let me deepen my voice.

Let me make stronger eye contact. Then she goes, right? You're like, what?

Robbie Carlton: 00:27:39

Yeah, yeah.

Michael Porcelli: 00:27:41

And. But she's.

No, what's really going on and it's like, well, it was really going on is like, I want you to like me, but like to even in a moment, like, to even say that feels like I'm not supposed to tell you, right, That I am trying to get you to like me right now.

Robbie Carlton: 00:28:01

Right? You're supposed to play it cool.

You're supposed to, you know, and this comes from, I think a lot our models for that particular kind of interaction come from Hollywood where, you know, the incredibly good looking Hollywood actor walks over and, and acts cool.

Michael Porcelli: 00:28:19

Right?

Robbie Carlton: 00:28:19

And then, you know, and then, you know, his romantic interest, she is excited about that, right? And so we look at that and go, that's how it's supposed to go. And. But yeah, so that in, in your example there, that was perfect, right?

Because it's like the thing that you're not. The thing that you're hiding, the thing you're, quote, lying about, right. Is I want you to like me.

Michael Porcelli: 00:28:42

Right?

Robbie Carlton: 00:28:43

And in it's. And it sounds innocuous, right? It's like, who cares? And like, kind of.

Of course, like, if you're approaching a woman you're interested in, to, to, to, you know, to start a conversation, it's kind of implicit. But we, we're trained to pretend that we don't care in that case. Right. So that's a. Yeah. And so to reveal that is to.

Is to give up a performance in favor of the authentic self.

Michael Porcelli: 00:29:13

Right, right, right. And then you kind of have this moment of like. And then the, you know, the facilitator woman goes like, that's interesting. Right. I'm interested. Now.

Say more about how do you want to like me to like you? Like, what does that feel like? You wanting to like me and then you kind of like.

And then it's sort of weird because you're kind of like, I feel like I'm done. I'm doing the opposite of what the good dating advice or be impressive and confident. Like. Like what all of that.

What I think all of that is supposed to mean.

Robbie Carlton: 00:29:44

Right.

Michael Porcelli: 00:29:45

I'm coming across this week like, I'm coming across as vulnerable. Like, I'm not supposed to. Right. She's not going to like this. And then for the woman facilitator to be like, thank God.

Like, I feel like I really am connected to you now. And that is sort of surprising. Like, wait, what?

You feel more interested and connected to me when I'm sharing this thing that I think I'm not supposed to be revealing? That's right. That's where it kind of like kind of starts to screw the record. Scratches, Scrambles your brain a little bit. Right, right.

Robbie Carlton: 00:30:19

And I think there's something. Right. We, you know, we'd kind of talked about some of the benefits of authenticity already, but another one I think is that it creates.

Like you did when you were kind of role playing the, the female facilitator. The response you. You did was you went, ah, right, right.

That there's this relief in other people's nervous systems when they feel that you are not working so hard to present something to hide, something to control.

Michael Porcelli: 00:30:50

Yes.

Robbie Carlton: 00:30:50

That you're. And so that there's this.

So not only is it release energy for you, but it actually is relieving for other people that there's a way that our nervous systems kind of can feel, even if it's not conscious. Right. In the, in the story you're telling.

Like, those facilitators are very well trained to actually be aware of those responses, but everybody is having those responses to some extent. And so there is a kind of an ease that comes from being around someone that's not doing so much of that stuff.

And in the specific context of, like, dating, I think the, the. The reason that that counterintuitive thing can work is because it's actually demonstrates a self confidence to be able to reveal this stuff. Right.

Like, and so there's a meta attractiveness. Even if what you're revealing is I'm nervous.

The fact that you feel comfortable enough with yourself to say, hey, I'm nervous to be talking to you right now is kind of. It's a meta confidence of like, yes, you might be nervous in this moment, but you also.

You're not, like, so fragile that you need to pretend that you're not nervous.

Michael Porcelli: 00:31:57

Yes, totally. Like, there's so many cool things coming up. Like, I'm glad we're spending this time on this stage because there's a lot of richness here.

And in a way, this is sort of like the central axis around which this whole conversation goes. So I. I got to be on the observing side of that. In a professional context.

You and I are maybe people out there don't know are engineering trained professionals. And in engineering school, there was this idea that you're supposed to be smart and you're supposed to have the answers. You know what I mean?

Like, this kind of the appearance of being a good engineer, right? There's almost this kind of competitiveness in engineering school. And I remember my earliest internship at Hewlett Packard.

I was on this team and, you know, we were. I was like, okay, cool. It's like a bunch of engineers. Like, we have a real product, right?

I'm working on a team that builds an actual thing in the real world. Like, this is so cool. It was like one of my earliest experiences working in the industry.

Robbie Carlton: 00:32:57

And it was a printer, right? You were working on printers?

Michael Porcelli: 00:33:00

It was on a printer, yeah.

Robbie Carlton: 00:33:02

Yeah, a physical printer, if anyone remembers.

Michael Porcelli: 00:33:04

Those back in the day. So this guy who was on the team, you know, kind of closer to my age than a lot of the older engineers. And, you know, we ended up becoming friends.

I really like this guy, but this was one of the moments where I was like, became very interested in him because, like, kind of going around and blah, blah, blah, you know, what about this? And what about this problem and the manager and all the, you know, the whole team's looking at the, you know, and he just goes, huh?

You know, I don't think I know the answer to that. Let me get back. Let me go figure it out. And it was a weird moment because I was like, what? Wait, what?

It's okay to say that you don't know the answer? Like, I couldn't imagine saying that, right?

In his role, I would had to make up some bullshit about kind of pretending like I knew what I was talking about and then go on my own, figure it out. And then come back like, I'm really smart and have the answer. You know what I mean? Like, and it was just, yeah, totally. I was just like.

But was weird. Was like, immediately I was like, I trust that guy. I like that guy.

Robbie Carlton: 00:34:15

Right, right. And there's so many. I mean, that's true. You know, like, we're podcasting here and then podcaster culture. There's this thing.

I actually had this recently. I was on someone else's podcast, and he asked me a question that I didn't have an answer for.

You know, it was a kind of philosophical question that I didn't have a work that answer for. And I. And I, you know, I started out by saying, here's my answer, here's what I think.

And then at some point I had to stop and kind of go, you know, what's more true is I actually haven't thought about this as much and don't know, but that's kind of a taboo. Like, you know, and I think that that's a failing. And in podcasting culture at this stage in the medium is everybody.

Everybody is supposed to be able to speak, you know, usefully and thoughtfully about every possible topic and that there's no, you know, you're not supposed to say, I don't know. And I think that that is right.

Like in the case of the engineering, which I love that story because I've definitely had those experiences as an engineer and myself felt everything you said. Right. And noticed that the most competent engineers are often the ones that are most likely to say, I'm not sure. I have to think about that.

Or I have to research that. And that there's a kind of thing. And now I'm thinking about imposter syndrome. Right. That there's a. If you don't. Again, it's this meta confidence.

It's meta self assurance.

Like, if you don't trust that you are a good engineer, then you're going to pretend that you know the answer to everything because you think that's what it means. If you trust that you're a good engineer, then you're safe to just reveal what your current thinking is about a particular problem.

And if you're thinking and you're like, I don't really know, that's totally safe thing to do because you trust that you're competent. Right. And so I. Anyway, I love that story.

Michael Porcelli: 00:36:09

It's true, right? Like there. And there's. There's a freedom that comes on the inside. You know, I would say people's first experiences. Maybe it Often feels this way.

You know, sometimes it does feel vulnerable or precarious, right? Like, is this actually going to be okay if I do this thing? You know, and.

But I had enough experiences of, like, seeing other people do it and feeling impressed, right? There's almost this kind of like, wow, that person is brave. They're bold, they're courageous.

And then maybe even the thought of, like, I've thought that, but I've never said it out loud or I don't know if I could. Could I.

Robbie Carlton: 00:36:58

Right.

Michael Porcelli: 00:36:58

Like, maybe I could, but, like, man, if that was me and somebody asked me that just right then I probably would have said some bullshit, right?

Robbie Carlton: 00:37:08

There's a. There's an experience that I had when I was. Yeah.

When I was first getting into this work and hanging around people that had much more practice than this, of. Of going, wait, you can say that. Like, someone would say something and you'd be like, wait, you can just say, like, you know what?

I'm not having a good time in this conversation right now or something. Whatever it is, right? Like, something like that. It's like, whoa. Or like, can we change the subject? This is boring to me.

Like, you know, that's a, you know, an example that. That was a thought that I would have a hundred times. But I just thought. You're not supposed to say that.

You're just supposed to, you know, kind of nod and grin and hope that you get what you want, right?

Michael Porcelli: 00:37:46

Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. I think people find places where they can do this, and maybe that's. That's actually fairly common.

Sometimes I wonder if, like, this is the role of, like, you know, back when, you know, the Catholic Church predominated European culture, if the confessional, like, is that sort of like, you don't necessarily.

You keep up appearances with a whole bunch of other people, but just for your own sanity, you have to have places where you kind of like, this is the shit I wouldn't say out loud in public, but I can say it.

And like, now, maybe today that's happens in the context of therapy, which is a little bit why this therapeutic and authenticity kind of literature have such a strong overlap. And it feels liberating, right? Like, when you're doing it, it's kind of like, oh, wow, right?

Like this, you know, or it feels like whether it's actually lying to, you know, it's like, maybe some people's definition of lying is like, it's intentionally lying, but, like, yeah, the way it feels like me, something's like, oh, this is the way I'VE been lying to myself. It's almost like you can more successfully trick others or fool others or whatever. Get others or control.

Robbie Carlton: 00:38:58

Yes.

Michael Porcelli: 00:38:59

Others. Perception of you. If you've kind of like bought into your own bullshit, like you're high in your own life.

Robbie Carlton: 00:39:06

Right.

Michael Porcelli: 00:39:06

You know what I mean?

Robbie Carlton: 00:39:08

Right. So there's a. Right.

So I think even, you know, I hesitate to say this is another kind of developmental aspect, but of that first stage, I think there's like a part of it where, you know, for a particular piece, you are unaware that you're being inauthentic. And then there's. But then there's a stage where you're aware. And so that moment where you know. But it. But yeah, I think it's more.

It's almost more complicated than that or subtler than that. Because that moment where someone says something and I go, wait, you can just say that.

It's not like I really knew that I was having that experience before. It's more like at the same time, I understand. Oh, I've.

I recognize the experience they're describing in themselves of saying, like, hey, I'm kind of checked out. Like. Like, can we change the subject? Or whatever it is for some reason. That's my example. Yes. I'm having a great time here.

It's nothing to do with this conversation, but I think that's just like, you know. But, you know, someone saying, like, I'm kind of checked out, like, can we change the subject? Or whatever. When they say it, I recognize. Oh, I.

I know the experience they're describing. I've definitely had that. I might even be having it right now. But I didn't know. I didn't. It's not just that I didn't know you were allowed to say it.

I kind of. It wasn't. And this is the. Where the subconscious comes in. Right. This is what Jung would call the subconscious. These things that are not.

They're kind of hanging out on the edge of your awareness, and it takes some. Like some intervention or some shift to actually recognize them. Yeah, right.

Michael Porcelli: 00:40:46

Yeah, right. And that's. That's the role. Kind of going into these places or spaces, like group. Like group therapy or group workshops. Like, it's.

It's kind of like, okay, we're signing up for this thing. You know, Sometimes it's like the rules of engagement for our time together are if you think it, you fucking say it. Oh, all right. Okay.

You know, and then. And it's a little bit like, not necessarily like, I recommend going through your whole life this way.

But, like, going through these periods of time where we're just switching on the, like, okay, hide nothing, man. You know, if you feel like. If you have the sensation of like, oh, here's the thing I could say, but I can't say that. Right.

You promise you will say it then, right. You make me a promise, like, for our time together, and then you're like, okay. Right. And like, a lot.

A lot of emotional energy and feelings get unlocked. Right. On both sides of that equation. Right.

It's like, oh, wow, I'm feeling liberated that I can now say these things that, you know, whatever my socially conditioned self wouldn't say, and it feels liberating. But then also to be on the receiving end of somebody else saying one of those things maybe about you. Right.

Sort of, like, helps you kind of, like, get a grasp of some peripheral thing that you've kind of been blocking out, you know, and you're like. And sometimes it's like, wow, I realize. I'm afraid that what you're telling me about myself might be true.

And that feels scary or it hurts or whatever. And then now we're kind of both doing it together. Right. And it's kind of like this mutual unveiling or uncovering or unhiding. It's pretty cool.

Robbie Carlton: 00:42:30

And.

And then the other thing that happens is kind of the example I was giving of like, somebody else reveals something about themselves and you realize something about yourself, even if they're not talking about you. But you just go, oh, yes, I recognize that, but I didn't have words for it before.

I think that's something that happens a lot, something that we have. And maybe this is kind of useful to start to move into the transition.

Michael Porcelli: 00:42:51

Yeah.

Robbie Carlton: 00:42:52

You know, one of the things that. The downsides of this authenticity stage is that you it that people's feelings get hurt a lot. Right. Like that. Like, you start.

One of the things that happens when you stop presenting and you stop hiding and you stop kind of managing your other people's perception of you and is that you start hurting people's feelings because you start saying things that the. You know, that are painful for people in different ways. Like, you know, you don't necessarily stay.

Michael Porcelli: 00:43:28

Friends with these people from the workshop.

Robbie Carlton: 00:43:31

Yeah, maybe. Or maybe not. I mean, sometimes in some cases, sure. But like, you know, if. If, you know, if somebody says, hey, I'm.

I'm bored, I'm bored, can we change the subject? That's kind of painful. And maybe that's, you know, and depending on what the subject is Maybe that's like, oh, well, that's useful feedback.

Okay, cool. All right.

I don't want to be boring someone I'm having a conversation with, but maybe you were talking about something deeply personal, important to you, and that reaction is, is, oof. Is like. And then you're kind of like, yes, well, screw you.

You know, there's just like, there are reasons why we put where we hit those parts of ourselves in the first place. And when you start to take off the layers, it's not all roses and having a good time and like, yeah.

Michael Porcelli: 00:44:11

Okay, we're building up to the transition. There's a couple of things I want to hit as we go this direction.

Like, I think one of the things that happens is you feel liberated in the workshop space, let's say the group therapy space, and you're like, I can really say this now. And it feels like. And people are responding positively. You know what I mean? It's like, cool.

There's almost this feeling of like, here's my gem, here's my beautiful interior. You know, I thought it was something that I needed to be ashamed of. And now I'm out and here I am.

And people like, oh, cool, how courageous and how brave and how attractive and how interesting. And that's true to an extent. But then you maybe even create this belief. Cool. That's it, right?

I show off my little gem and everyone's going to love it. But that's not true, right? It's not true.

Robbie Carlton: 00:45:04

Uh huh.

Michael Porcelli: 00:45:05

People get to not. Like, if you were pretending to be somebody else to get people to like you, you were probably in a lot of really phony relationships.

But like, once you do the uncovering part right now, other people get to not like you for the right reasons.

Robbie Carlton: 00:45:24

Right, right.

Well, and because those, you know, in the workshop where you're training this stuff, there's a little bit of artificiality where everybody's primed to be really enthusiastic. And also because it's not your wife or your family member or your friend, it's some random person in a workshop.

So you don't care that much whatever they say, right. So then you can be like, cool, thanks so much for revealing yourself. Like, this is what we're doing here. Cool.

But then you go home and like, you know, your, your, your colleague didn't necessarily sign up for this. Of like, they walk in and you go like, dude, your breast stinks. And they're like, fuck you.

Michael Porcelli: 00:46:01

No, this is, this is, this is one of the, you might say this is the early sign of the limits of this stage is something like, you know, I've thought about, can we fix this or correct this? And some degree, I think it just limits to how much.

In a way, when you're in this phase, being in a community of practice around people who want to do this thing, like, a lot is probably pretty good for you because you're like, oh, the layers. Your layers, my layers. We're just shedding layers. Repealing. We're unhiding. Da da, da, da. Great, right?

Like, go to your authentic relating community and your authentic relating practice groups, whatever they are. Cool. Awesome, right? But then the. One of the mistakes is, like, transferring this norm that applies in those spaces to everywhere.

And then you think, right? Like, it almost becomes like, you're being Popeye again. Like, I am now like, this. This is who I am.

You know, like, you know, calls air mode the authentic jerk. Or like the authentic alien imposter. Like, somehow you.

The person that your, you know, friends back home or whatever, your family kind of are like, what? Who the heck do you think you are now, Right?

Like, you know, you went to the workshop and you were supposed to be, whatever, improving, and now you're kind of just more of a jerk because you can't stop. You know, it's like tmi, man. You can't stop saying what you think about everybody to their faces all of the time. Why are you doing that?

And you're kind of like, well, I'm doing that because liberation and everyone should be free. Like, I feel free. And then the world would be a better place. And it's kind of like, yeah, no, that's not.

Robbie Carlton: 00:47:49

It's partial, right? It's because there are moments, because you might do that and it might liberate someone, right?

You might go back into the world and you do something and it's like, it. It's really valuable. You say to your co worker, hey, man, your. Your breath does not smell good. And they go, seriously? Oh, cool. Thanks for telling me.

Like, I guess I've gotta up my oral hygiene. And that's like a positive interaction, right? But. Or, you know, but. But. Or, you know, or you. You tell your granny, like, hey, you're kind of racist.

Like, can you cut that back? And she's like, you. Like, I don't whatever. Like, it's not, you know, it doesn't always go well.

And so part of that, right, And I think this is if we're transitioning into. The third thing, is this idea of skillful means and of actually considering not just. And yeah.

Not just kind of my own authentic self and the difference between like, well, what's going to feel good for me versus what's not? Well, what's true for me versus what's not, but to start to consider the whole and to say what.

What is the appropriate response in this moment that will, you know, bring more of the thing that I want to bring? Like that will, you know, bring more connection or bring more aliveness or bring more love or whatever, you know, my values are. Yes, but to. And that.

That may be revealing your authentic self. Like we fixated its authenticity because that's a place where we get really stuck is in, in not being authentic.

And so being able to free ourselves up to be authentic puts a bunch more options on the menu.

But ultimately what you want is just to have a lot of options on the menu that you are free to do and to be able to pay attention to the moment and create the, the. The moment that you want to create. So anyway, that's my, that's my sense of like, where it goes. You. Where it goes.

Michael Porcelli: 00:49:52

Yeah, we're going there. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's time to transition. I think you're right.

I just want to say some of the signals you might start feeling that indicate you're sort of like, what's the developmental thing? Right. This stage isn't working out as well as it was. Like, what's the.

You know, and part of it might be, you know, maybe you do need to kind of upgrade your friendship circles and get rid of some toxic friendships and maybe you being authentic helps you get there and that's good, right?

But like, you might be kind of like, wait a minute, am I supposed to just always be trying to kind of reveal the deepest, darkest, most vulnerable thing?

Robbie Carlton: 00:50:30

Right?

Michael Porcelli: 00:50:31

Or is it like, is it only a real connection if like I'm revealing a deep dark secret of mine and now you're revealing a deep dark secret of yours and then we kind of go like, ah, that's what real friendship is. Like, are we just, are we just bonding over our past traumas?

Is that, you know, you start to kind of like wonder like, why is it that we're only feeling most connected when we're being the most, I don't know, dark or edgy or something, you know what I mean? Like, or jerky or like poking at each other. Like, why are we saying that? That's. It definitely stimulates strong feelings, but is that.

Are we starting to just equate these kind of spiky up down feelings with that's real connection. That's real intimacy. It feels like. What about just kind of talking about movies or what? You know what I'm saying?

I feel like I feel connected when I'm talking about whatever less intense things. Right. It's like it becomes like a narrower. Ironically, the whole point is to expand the options.

Robbie Carlton: 00:51:37

Yes.

Michael Porcelli: 00:51:37

But then you start to feel like you're more kind of constrained by the norms of this authenticity vibe to a limited number of options, which is ironic.

Robbie Carlton: 00:51:49

It's really. There's a really kind of wild phenomena which is very common in people training authenticity. You know, kind of practicing this stuff where.

And you'll see this. I saw it recently. I think we both saw it on a. I won't say where, but somewhere. Somebody talking about this. But.

But this is a very common thing where people will say, I can't relate with regular people anymore. Like, I can't connect with regular people anymore because it's just too painful. I can feel the ways that they're full of shit.

They react badly when I'm honest. And so, like, I can only relate with my, like, other people that have gone through this whole workshop and stuff like that.

And just to call out, like, if you are having that experience, it's totally understandable. I think it is necessary developmentally. I do think that it's just part of the process, and you don't want to get stuck there and you can get out.

Right. Like. Like, it is. It's possible to learn this authenticity stuff.

And I think this is one of the failure modes or one of the places where you start to feel the limitation of it, where you realize I'm only able to connect with people that are also trained in this very rarefied thing.

Michael Porcelli: 00:53:00

Yes.

Robbie Carlton: 00:53:01

And I don't want that. Like, I want to be able to go home to Christmas with my family, have a good time and. And feel.

Feel comfortable, feel connected, feel, you know, with, you know, creative, and feel like, I'm. Yeah, have a good time.

Or talk to the Uber driver and have a good time talking to the Uber driver and not feel kind of like, this is a Muggle, and I kind of talk to Muggles, whatever. Right.

Like, so I think that that's another, you know, that's another signifier of, like, okay, it's time when you feel that it's time to start to figure out what.

Michael Porcelli: 00:53:35

Totally. Yeah. I mean, it makes perfect sense and, like, the wrong move at that moment.

And, you know, I think I've made this wrong move to some degree, which is, like. Is to just do more of that authenticity thing.

Robbie Carlton: 00:53:48

Right, right.

Michael Porcelli: 00:53:49

It's kind of like, oh, well, I guess I should just keep doing more because, like, doing it a lot more served me so well, you know, during this phase, I should just. Okay, maybe there's just more I can reveal. Maybe there's just.

Can't you understand how badly it hurts when I can't relate with you the way that I want to? And it's like, wait. And other people are going, like, who the fuck do you think you are? Like, get me away from you. You know what I mean? Like.

Robbie Carlton: 00:54:20

Right.

Michael Porcelli: 00:54:20

It's trippy.

Robbie Carlton: 00:54:21

I have definitely been. I've definitely been that guy in. In. Yeah, I'm just remembering that story. I was like, oh, God. Yeah.

I remember a time where I just was desperately trying to get more and more authentic and was. Yeah, exactly. That was. Was not working. Was just freaking people out because they were not. They hadn't signed up.

Michael Porcelli: 00:54:42

Signed up for it.

Robbie Carlton: 00:54:43

And it's. Yeah, they hadn't signed up for it on there. Maybe weren't, you know, prepared or whatever. So. Yes. Yeah. So that.

That instinct of just doubling down, doing more and. And then. And then what people do is they go, well, I just need to surround myself. I just need to be in workshops all the time.

I need to create a community. I need to build a, you know, a house is populated by these people. Exactly. Get some land. Right, exactly.

Where only people that are, you know, have a certain amount of training are allowed to. To be there so that I can feel comfortable. Right. And, like, that it's. It's fragile.

Michael Porcelli: 00:55:20

Right.

Robbie Carlton: 00:55:20

Like, it's a kind of fragility that starts to emerge.

Michael Porcelli: 00:55:22

Yep, Yep. And, you know, I think that this is good, like, to. To move to the next one. But, like, this.

This idea, that part of the transition from the first part, the, like, I just. I'm already authentic to, like. No, no, no. I can. I can learn how to become more authentic.

Is recognizing that, like, there is something that you're doing. Right. Authenticity is sort of. It's. It's. It's manifesting in what you're doing and in what you are saying. Right.

Like, it's not just so, like, okay, cool. Well, I have a wider palette of things I can do and say. And if the goal of that was to sort of unblock the availability of all.

All the musical instruments or all the colors you could paint with, then you're kind of like, this is pretty cool. I have a pretty wide range of things that I can use now. Right, right. And no longer it feels like.

And maybe you even start wondering, this was part of, for me, as a more kind of brainy or cognitive type. Like, I actually started wondering, what does that word mean, authenticity, anyway?

Like, does it just mean revealing more things, like becoming like, more, more detailed? Like, there's a sensation in my left rib and this. And then, you know, it's like, it's just more information.

It's like at some point it's like, no, it's not just more.

Okay, well, maybe it's that thing, that other aspect of authenticity where it's like, you know, you're, it's your voice tone and your body language and your words, and it's like you're congruent and you're having an impact with what you, you know. Like, that's kind of part of it, you know, but. Or is it just like more like integrity? Right? Like, I, I, I, I do what I say that I will do.

So people feel like I'm authentic because I behave consistently with my espoused values and claims. Right?

Like, okay, or maybe it's like we talk about owning your experience where it's like, you speak from your experience in a way where you're, you know, it's inarguable. You're letting people know. This is my opinion, right? This is my perception. This is my interpretation. Okay, so you're owning more.

And in a way, these are all sort of aspects of things you can do that will have you feel more like yourself, feel more authentic, and have people kind of experience you as more of an authentic person.

But, like, the reason why I'm pointing out these different senses of the word is partly because it kind of starts to lose its usefulness as an organizing principle once you get to this point, like, once you're kind of moving into stage three, it's not like you don't care about authenticity. It's just like, this is just not the central concern I have.

Robbie Carlton: 00:58:12

Right.

Michael Porcelli: 00:58:13

Anymore.

Robbie Carlton: 00:58:14

It's content free. It's content free, right?

It's like you can't ultimately, maybe you can ultimately value authenticity, but do you ultimately value authenticity if the authenticity is people just revealing shitty thoughts that they're having about each other? Like, I think that ultimately you have to value something that you feel is intrinsically good.

And, and then authenticity becomes a tool in service of the thing that you value, which is intrinsically good.

And I think that there is a, I think I'm just kind of exploring something here, but, like, not like, not having to pretend I think that is intrinsically good. Right. So I think that to a certain extent, there's a thing you value that leads you into the authenticity stage, stage two.

But then there's a point where you start to realize that by itself, it doesn't produce any particular kind of positive change in the world. That it's a. It's just. It's a clearing out of blockages. But then there's a third stage where you have to actually start to.

And this is why I talk about. The third stage is being creative.

You have to actually start to create the valued world that you want to live in using your tools that you've now freed up.

Michael Porcelli: 00:59:47

Yeah, yeah. I like this.

Like, you know, in a certain way, you could say that authenticity starts to feel like a little bit more of a flexible thing, or my authentic self is no longer that useful of a concept. Right. It's more of a process, like the metaphor. If it was sort of like the gemstone you're polishing off or unburying in stage two.

The metaphor in stage three is the onion is you just peel back. Oh, you peel back another layer, and you get to peel back another layer. Right.

And another thing I experienced that kind of was an indicator was, like, yesterday in the workshop, I, like, really had to work hard to kind of unveil this thing. You know what I mean? And the people were like, right. And then it was like, but that was yesterday.

And then today it was like, I'm going to do it again. Let me tell you about. And then it's, wait a minute. You know, it's not quite right. It's a little stale. It's like, oh, wait a minute.

That was yesterday's authenticity, right?

Robbie Carlton: 01:00:44

This is like somebody kind of says at the peak of a circle of, like, we've been talking for 45 minutes. And someone says, I just feel lonely. And everybody's eyes tear up, and everybody's like, oh, God, now you know. And this is why it's addictive.

This is why people take these workshops, because that feeling is fantastic for everybody. When.

When somebody, like, peels back a real layer and you feel something that had not been exposed before, it's like, oh, like, your heart melts, and you feel the humanity and a brotherhood and, like, just this beautiful kind of feeling. And then, like, you say, then the next day, that person comes, there's another circle, and they say, you know, I just feel so lonely.

And it's like, nobody gives a crap. Like, it's like, cool, you know, it just doesn't, you know, same thing. But, like, it doesn't have that magic. Right.

In the, you know, in the, in the circling world that, you know, you and I both came up in, we would call that Alethea. Right. An Aletheia, which does come from Heidegger. Again, like Aletheia is. Is the feeling of some. A truth that had been hidden, becoming.

Michael Porcelli: 01:01:49

Yes.

Robbie Carlton: 01:01:49

Visible.

Michael Porcelli: 01:01:50

Yes.

Robbie Carlton: 01:01:50

And that there's some. There's some magic to that which is special and different than saying things. And this is also why one person might say, I feel lonely and nobody.

And you know, people care, but like, it doesn't have that thing because for them it's not a truth that needs revealing. It's a truth that is already present. Right. Visible.

Michael Porcelli: 01:02:11

Right.

Robbie Carlton: 01:02:11

And for somebody else, it's actually the process of peeling back the layers that has this kind of magical quality to it.

Michael Porcelli: 01:02:18

Right.

And then I think when you kind of lean into this, call this the post authentic phase, sometimes it doesn't even really even feel like revealing something that I've been hiding. Right. It will feel.

Sometimes it'll feel like I'm discovering something about myself or maybe like you said, something creative, like an active creation. Like, what if we. I took this and I took that and we like, put that together in this way and you've got that thing over there and.

You know what I mean? Like, it's like, I don't know, it's like, yeah, it's a beautiful, wonderful thing, but it just doesn't feel like, oh, I'm being more authentic.

It just feels like we're joining together in some co creative or transcendent moment to, I don't know, make the world more good or more beautiful or whatever, you know what I'm saying? Like, it, it's less of like, let me peel back a thing that's blocking a thing so that you can see a thing that nobody could see before.

It just doesn't feel that way as often anymore because you're kind of like. I kind of feel like I have all the, like the colors and the musical notes are already available, you know, like.

Robbie Carlton: 01:03:26

Yeah.

Michael Porcelli: 01:03:26

Or most of them.

Robbie Carlton: 01:03:27

Yeah. Right, right. That's. Yeah. So, yeah, for me it's almost like the metaphor.

I think there's value in the onion metaphor, but maybe the onion metaphor is kind of like 2.5.

Michael Porcelli: 01:03:38

Sure.

Robbie Carlton: 01:03:39

And then stage three is like the, the metaphor is like clay, clay. Like you just, you. You have clay to work with and you make something that, that, that. That matters to you and you, you know, and, and it's.

But it's co. Creative as well. You're making something in relationship.

And this is where, you know, for me, this is where I started as a, as an example, talking about God. Like, I hadn't been able to talk about God until this stage, but I got to this stage and I could start talking about God, right.

And be able to say, you know, like. Or as an example, like, this is a random intervention that I will sometimes.

I learned from Carl be Kite as an NLP teacher that I'll sometimes use when I'm working one on one with someone and we're working with some, like, super tender, difficult experience that they had as a child. And to say, like, on behalf of humanity, I'm sorry that happened to you. Right. Like, and, and, and that, that can be a beautiful intervention.

Can be like, you know, in the right moment and you. And you can't just do it rote. But like, but like, I do not from a.

From the stage two level of, like, owning my experience and just revealing what's true about my authentic self. I don't have the authority to, to, to apologize to you on behalf of humanity.

But like, from the creative stage, when I say that there's a rush of energy and connection and love and this beautiful thing happens that's like, yeah, you can, like you. It frees up options that are otherwise not available.

Michael Porcelli: 01:05:16

Yes, Yes. I love it. Yeah. Whether it's clay or the onion. I mean, there's another.

There's an emptiness thing here, which is a Buddhist idea, like the no self concept or the emptiness of essence concept, where it's like, I logic myself into this, where I'm like, okay, Robby, if you were to take you and then you were to subtract all the genetic relationships you have with your ancestry, and then you were to subtract all the relationships you had with everybody all the way since before you were born into being born and all the conditioning, then who would you be? And people wait. You know, my belief is like, there isn't. There's nothing left there. There's no.

Robbie Carlton: 01:06:08

This is different. I have a difference. This is. We're getting into theology here. Yeah, I, I don't know. I think that there is a soul.

Michael Porcelli: 01:06:15

Sure.

Robbie Carlton: 01:06:15

I think that there is something. But we don't need to get into. Into that. But I'm Buddhist.

Michael Porcelli: 01:06:20

Like, I am this way.

Robbie Carlton: 01:06:22

No, I'm not. This is where I fall out with Buddhism is in the. Is in the emptiness of the self. But I might be wrong.

Michael Porcelli: 01:06:29

Sure. Well, that's how I get into this empty thing.

It's a little bit like if you peel back all the layers of the onion, there just wouldn't be anything there anymore. Right. It's kind of gone.

Robbie Carlton: 01:06:38

There's no onion.

Michael Porcelli: 01:06:38

There's no onion, Right. I do think there is.

You know, these things that remain like that are kind of like my conditioning or my past or my genetics or whatever are still there. Right. It's just I'm no longer attached to them. Like, everything becomes. There's more spontaneity, there's more creativity. There's more fluidity.

Like, in a way, it's like you take this authenticity thing in that second stage, and you start to realize that that is itself a. The authentic self is a kind of fiction. It's a construct. Like the gem buried under the. Whatever. The buried treasure metaphor is a construct, right.

And you're kind of like, okay, right. Like, so you kind of end up being like, okay, I could wear this outfit today. I could put takeover for this purpose. Right.

But, like, I do think whatever it is that you're doing at that stage, it might sort of feel like he kind of devolves into relativistic chaos. Right? Like, I mean, maybe.

Maybe there's a weird thing that happened when postmodernism became a thing and authenticity became like, wait a minute, We. We've lost our sense of tradition and rules like virtue. What do we grab onto? And then, you know, the existentialist. Come on, authenticity.

Grab onto that. Right. Like, at least you can be true to yourself. Right?

Robbie Carlton: 01:08:10

Like, Right. And it's like, so here's. I think. Here's where I have a difference and where I think the emptiness thing, it doesn't quite fit for me.

I think even at stage three, there are things which you could do which would be inauthentic. And so it. It's not. I think, for me. And again, I might be wrong. Maybe I'm. There's a. It's.

Michael Porcelli: 01:08:35

It's cool for us to diverge on this one, but I think we're still talking about different ways people experience the third stage.

Robbie Carlton: 01:08:41

Right? But. And so, because for me, yeah, I just still imagine, like, that there are. That.

It's kind of like you're still building on the authenticity of the second stage. What you've done is you've freed yourself up to not be constrained by kind of requirements from the first stage. Right.

And so now you're freed, and you have all these different palettes and all these different colors, but there are still things that you could do that would ring false. There are still things you could do that would not feel true, would not feel resonant. Like, you know, in that.

In the story with the, you know, the NLP intervention, to say, you know, on behalf of humanity, I apologize. Like, you know, I might. What if I were to say, well, Archangel Gabriel is whispering in my ear, telling me that you're good. Right?

Like, if I'm not having that experience, that's still, you know, that's creative. And maybe that would be like a helpful thing for someone to hear. It's weird. I'm getting into the religious stuff here.

Michael Porcelli: 01:09:43

But whatever context, that might actually be a very powerful thing to say. Right.

Robbie Carlton: 01:09:48

God told me to say this to you. God told me to say this to you. But, but if, but if.

But if you don't have the experience that that's what's happening, if when you say it, it doesn't have that crackle of Alethea, right then. And I think that that's maybe that's interesting that, like, Aletheia. One way that we get Aletheia.

So that, you know, we talked about this briefly, but now I want to say it a little more. Like in that moment where you reveal something for the first time, or you reveal something that's been hidden to yourself and to other people.

And there's this. There's this thing that happens, this magic. People get tears in their eyes, their hearts swell up, they get chills.

There's literally like a physiological thing that happens. People feel loved, they feel connected.

Michael Porcelli: 01:10:30

Right?

Robbie Carlton: 01:10:31

This. This Aletheia thing that happens.

Michael Porcelli: 01:10:32

Yes.

Robbie Carlton: 01:10:33

And it. One way. So maybe one way of thinking about this, one way that can happen is through a revealing of a hidden aspect of the self. That.

And that's the authenticity stage where you're practicing revealing and uncovering those parts. But it's also possible to kind of.

To say things which are imbued with Aletheia, which are not things that were previously hidden, but things that are being created and things that are being revealed for the first time. Yes, but that is still a constraint. You can't just say anything.

Michael Porcelli: 01:11:04

Right.

Robbie Carlton: 01:11:04

And be in this third stage. Right. So that's where I'm kind of talking about.

It doesn't feel completely empty to me, like, in this postmodern relativist, like, well, whatever you do, you're just free to just say whatever you think is going to be most useful. It's like, there's still a constraint. It's just the constraint is not about you anymore. It's about the everything.

Michael Porcelli: 01:11:25

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, one thing I will agree about with you here Is that like, it's not. It's not like anything goes.

Robbie Carlton: 01:11:35

Yeah.

Michael Porcelli: 01:11:35

Although I would say anything is possible. Right. Something like that. I don't know if there's a meaningful difference there, but, like, there. There is.

There are still real constraints that are contextual. Like, it gets a little woo here. Right.

right in this world Today, in: 2024

But the feeling is not like, what does the me want? It's more like, what is it that wants to happen? You know what I'm saying? Or something like that?

Robbie Carlton: 01:12:22

Totally. No, yeah, yeah.

Michael Porcelli: 01:12:24

I think that's aligned with that thing. And in some times it just feels like. Right. Like a thing is flowing through me. It just feels like the thing that is meant to be.

And like, when I'm really in it, it's a little bit like my life doesn't really even belong to me. I belong to the world. Right. Like, I belong to you.

And, you know, my reason for being here is actually beyond my ability to fully understand, like, why me, why this lifetime, why this personality, why this genetic makeup, why any of it is not. Like, there isn't a reason. There is.

And like, I can perceive it partially, but never completely, but it isn't actually the point for me to, like, fully comprehend it and then somehow agentically choose the next thing that's supposed to happen.

Actually, at a certain point, I'm like, oh, my agency itself, this idea that I even am choosing, like, you know, Ken Wilber talks about choiceless awareness.

Robbie Carlton: 01:13:33

Right.

Michael Porcelli: 01:13:34

There is a place where it's kind of like, yes, something like choosing the next thing to say or do is happening, but at this level, I don't totally feel in control.

Robbie Carlton: 01:13:45

Right.

Michael Porcelli: 01:13:46

Of it.

Robbie Carlton: 01:13:47

Yes. Yeah. And.

And we, you know, we're varying in the territory of a conversation about free will, which we're going to veer back away from, because that would be a sticky rabbit hole. But no, I love that. And you know, the thing that I was going to say, or I was resonating with the idea of what wants to happen.

Michael Porcelli: 01:14:04

Yes.

Robbie Carlton: 01:14:05

Right. As opposed to what I want or what's. But. But what is here in this field, in this moment, what wants to happen? But I want to add another thing.

And this is where I think the soul comes back in.

And maybe you know, maybe it's not fair to say, like, if you strip away all of the genetic and all of the environmental and all of the historical forces that came to you, would this still be here? I don't know. But what I want to say is, yes, what wants to happen in this moment, but not like each person in the moment will have.

There is a different expression of that.

Michael Porcelli: 01:14:40

Yes.

Robbie Carlton: 01:14:40

It's not like if you didn't say it, someone else could say it and it would work just the same. No. Like, it's like it's unique and specific to you, even while it's like, it's. What can I express that will serve this moment?

Not just what impersonally serves this moment.

Michael Porcelli: 01:14:58

Yes. No. Right. This is where I, like, I'm not.

I'm not an expert on, like, Buddhist or Hindu theology, but, like, at least to the degree I think I understand something about the differences in their concept of reincarnation. Right. Is like something like the you being reincarnated versus, like, is because in Buddhism, you're like, I thought there was no self.

So why are you talking about Buddhist reincarnation? How does that even make any sense?

Robbie Carlton: 01:15:22

But, like, agreed.

Michael Porcelli: 01:15:23

The way I've wrapped my mind around it, and Buddhist experts can correct me if I'm wrong, is that you are actually a bundle of, like, karmic threads, Right. That's sort of flowing through time and space. Right. So, like, what can come through the bundle of karmic threads that is you is unique to you.

But, like, if you unbundled the threads, this is just like. Yeah, a gene or like a condition or an intergenerational fucking pattern or the culture or the system or the society. You know what I'm saying?

Like, you see what I mean?

Robbie Carlton: 01:16:01

Yeah, I do. Yeah.

Michael Porcelli: 01:16:02

And it's really aligning with your bundle. Like, my bundle is a unique bundle, but just like, what does that bundle, like, gonna do here is sort of like, it's just gonna.

I could just more beautifully let it happen in a way at this post authenticity stage. So in a way, you're kind of like.

You're sort of recovering a version of it, which is sort of like there is still something that is inauthentic at stage three, even though we're still kind of post authentic. We're calling stage three post authentic. Right. But like, yeah, maybe we're just. It's harder to kind of put into definitive words, but it is.

Yeah, it is authentic at that level.

Robbie Carlton: 01:16:36

So it might be. It might be better to call it trans authentic.

Michael Porcelli: 01:16:40

Sure.

Robbie Carlton: 01:16:40

Than post Authentic. Right. That's because it's including authenticity and then transcending it, not kind of moving past it to some distinct stage.

Michael Porcelli: 01:16:51

Yeah, yeah. Anyway, I don't know how many people do you think are going to follow us to, to this point?

But like, I would say this trans authentic does have a kind of. It sort of does have a spiritual quality to it at times. Like, it sort of sounds, oh, wow, yes. Post on the Translate.

And at other times it really just feels kind of like, oh, yeah.

Probably what the most appropriate thing for me to do right now is to not say that thought out loud because, yeah, it's not really adding something beautiful or good to the situation if I were to do that.

Robbie Carlton: 01:17:25

Right, right. Or it's just talking about movies or like you're with your Uber driver and you're talking about like, you know, oh, where did you grow up?

Like, what do you, you know, whatever it is. Right. Like that, that's just completely, you know, this is where we reintegrate.

You know, one of the hallmarks of the authenticity stage is people get really aggressive about small talk and how much they hate it. And then you get to post authenticity or trans authenticity, you reintegrate small talk and you're like, no, no, small talk is fine.

Like, it's, it's useful, it's valuable, it's fun.

Like, you can chit chat with people about their life stories and about where they're from and where they went to school or, you know, whatever else, and it's, it's completely fine. Fine. It's a satisfying. Yeah, I definitely. There was. I had a transition.

I mean, I keep using this example, talking to the Uber driver, because I was someone, when I was at this, when I was like, deep in the authenticity stage, I was. They didn't have the option on the Uber app to say, I don't want a conversation. It was before that option added.

And so, But I was someone that would like hate or in a taxi or an Uber or whatever, would just like really hope to get a quiet guy because I didn't want to talk. I didn't know. And then one of the indicators for me of, of like my transition into the stage three was I started having a blast.

Like, I could, I could have a great conversation with a taxi driver, an Uber driver, and just like chat away and, you know, enjoy myself. And so that, that, I think that's a really concrete example of, like, for me personally, was very valuable to notice that.

Michael Porcelli: 01:18:54

Totally. Yeah.

Robbie Carlton: 01:18:55

And now it's, you know, some people are born being Able to, like, I had to fucking learn. Like, some people are born, so I don't know that everybody's gonna.

You know, some people in stage one can have a good time talking to an Uber driver, but for me, it took a lot of work.

Michael Porcelli: 01:19:08

Well, you know, I think, you know, the things that were good at stage one sometimes become good again at stage three. You know, they get, like you said, they get recovered. You know, I want to land this plane shortly. But one.

One further thing I want to say too is like, use a metaphor of like a Venn diagram. You know, you can be like, you and your relatives back home, or you and your friend from high school, or you and the Uber driver. Right?

It's like you could sort of be kind of like, they really don't get me fully. Like, I really wish they would and like, man. Or ideally, the relationship would be such that they totally got me.

Like, all those people at the authenticity workshop got me. Blah, blah, blah. Right? And in stage three, you're kind of like, but that overlap space is greater than zero. It's more than nothing.

Robbie Carlton: 01:19:58

Right, Right.

Michael Porcelli: 01:19:59

And then you're kind of like, oh, yeah. But I feel like I gotta, like, box myself in to, like, talk to them in this little place of overlap.

That might be how it feels if you're, like, fixated on this authenticity stage. Right. But then when. When you kind of go past it, you're kind of like, right, whoa. How. How mind blowing is that?

There's probably an overlap between you and every single other person that you meet. And what is that over that place? That's kind of interesting. Who cares if it's not you getting to be, right.

Your fully authentic self, or they're not telling you their deepest, you know, hopes and dreams or whatever.

Robbie Carlton: 01:20:35

Right. They still have them.

Michael Porcelli: 01:20:37

Right.

Robbie Carlton: 01:20:37

Like, they're still. There's still a whole person there with, like, a deep heart and longings and.

And heartbreaks and, like, that's, you know, has going to have to face the death of their parents, is going to have to, you know, figure out, like, it's, it's, you know, nobody there, nobody is shallow. Yeah, it's.

So, yeah, you can, you can kind of start to appreciate, basking in the light of that, whether they're like, fully ripping their chest open to reveal their bloody heart or not.

Michael Porcelli: 01:21:08

Yeah, right, Right. And you can, and you can just sort of start small with the small talk and be like, that was interesting.

Like, you know, stage three, the context means a lot, right? In this time and place on this Uber drive with this particular combination of people. We found the vibe spot, which is kind of.

It sort of starts at where the, you know, the little self Venn diagrams overlap, right? And you're kind of like, right, well, there's just beauty in that. Like, it's the beauty in simplicity, right? Or the beauty in whatever. Right.

Doesn't have to be the deepest, most profound thing in order to be authentic. And you don't even have to feel like you're being your most authentic self, right. For it to actually be the.

This idea called maybe this is a good place to go to end it. Like this idea of right relationship. Have we talked about this before?

Robbie Carlton: 01:22:02

I mean, I know about it from the Buddhist idea.

Michael Porcelli: 01:22:05

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's like I sometimes will say, no relationship will be as wonderful, ideal or as beautiful as you can imagine. None of them will be. Right?

But what a relationship is, you can be more or less in alignment with right relationship.

And this, I suppose if we do that kind of paradigm shift and do the relationship centered point of view, we're not prioritizing the authentic selves anymore. We're prioritizing almost like, yes. What does it mean for this relationship to be authentic or something like that, right?

And it's kind of like, well, true intimacy is not like you're gonna do everything that I want you to do, like you're some kind of robot or AI friend. Right? That would be in a weird way unfulfilling to me if all you did was like align with my preferences.

I actually want some unpredictability and some friction and difference. And that's partly what makes it real, right? For the relationship to be real kind of means like you allow it to sort of have its. A life of its own.

There's almost like a nexus agency that is exists in the overlap. If you think of the relationship itself as a third entity, it has its own logic.

And in a way it's not like right relationship is like, you know, putting a stamp on it or pinning the butterfly and saying, that's the butterfly. It's sort of just like letting the butterfly do what it's going to do, right? In a way, like it's like you and me letting our relationship right.

You know, it doesn't mean we don't fight. It doesn't mean we don't say what we want. It doesn't mean we don't reveal what's true for ourselves. Right?

But like when you're in the relationship centered point of view, that's just part of the story. Authenticity is an Ingredient, but not the complete purpose of a relationship or for a relationship to be healthy and fulfilling is just kind of.

It's a life of its own. Anyway, I want to hear your thoughts on this and maybe we kind of wrap.

Robbie Carlton: 01:24:11

Yeah, the thing that's here for me is just to call out the. There's a little bit of a trap, which is the pre. Kind of pre trans.

Fallacy thing where like, you know, and I talked about this in my solo podcast about this, but I want to say it here because here we are. And a danger is that you hear about this stage three thing and you go, cool, that's what I'm going to do.

I'm just going to say whatever's appropriate to the moment. And sometimes I'm going to bite my tongue because it's, you know, and that you skip the stage two of really doing the work.

And so then your kind of stage one parts that are trying to manage and control and.

And present a particular aspect of you, those parts are really running the show, but they're just weaponized by this philosophy of stage three, saying, well, no, I'm just doing whatever serves the moment. And so this is why I think it's valuable. And like, you know, Porch and I are kind of talking about this. Like, yeah, we're, we're.

We work in stage three. Like, I, I work in stage three. Like, I'm not. I have that. You know, that's why we're able to talk about it.

But you never get to say, I'm done with stage two. Like, you, you have to keep coming back. You have to keep checking yourself.

You have to keep looking for, like, places where you're hiding out, places where you're still full of shit and still trying to control and manage. You don't. It's not like what happens is you, you get to the end of stage two because you are now perfectly authentic.

And now it's time to move in stage three. You get to stage three because you start to hit the limits of a purely authentic approach.

Michael Porcelli: 01:25:52

Right.

Robbie Carlton: 01:25:53

And so then you start to include these other kind of dimensions. But you still have to keep working stage two. So I just want to. And I think you still have to keep working stage one. Right, Right.

And that's like the small talk. And that's like the, you know, that's like talking about movies or whatever. Like, it's all in there. So I. So stage three is trend. It's a, It's a.

What do they call it?

Michael Porcelli: 01:26:14

A whole.

Robbie Carlton: 01:26:15

Archie.

Michael Porcelli: 01:26:16

Thank.

Robbie Carlton: 01:26:16

Geez, I lost the word. We were just talking about losing words. It's a whole Archy.

So the stage one is enveloped by stage two, is enveloped by stage three, but they build on each other, and the whole stage three is made out of stage two and stage one, right?

Michael Porcelli: 01:26:30

Yes. Awesome. Well, Robbie, yet again, a beautiful, fun, enjoyable riff with you. I love talking about this kind of stuff.

I love fusing together relationships, authenticity, and these developmental models that you and I love so much. And my hope is that people come away from this conversation getting a better sense of maybe where they are.

Because, you know, it's like, there's two crucial transition points you might be on your journey hearing this, and one might be kind of like, I thought I was already authentic, just the way that I was not really realizing. There's a lot of layers to peel back and discovery of ways you're kind of like, lying to yourself or you're kind of like, I feel scared.

Like, I can only hang out with people in the authenticity workshop space and community. And like, then you're hitting the limits of stage two. So if you're in either one of those transition phases, well, welcome to your next stage.

You can keep going. Right. Like, anyway, I suppose that's the invitation that is intrinsic or implicit in our conversation today.

Robbie Carlton: 01:27:34

Can I. Can I add another possibility there?

Michael Porcelli: 01:27:37

Yes.

Robbie Carlton: 01:27:38

That somebody might be hitting the limits of stage three and starting to eyeball whatever stage four is, whatever that might be. If you are, if you feel that that's you, I would love to hear from you.

Yeah, I would be very curious to hear what people are encountering in the further reaches of that.

Michael Porcelli: 01:28:00

I'm not sure I want to hear from these people.

Robbie Carlton: 01:28:04

Okay, you can get in touch with me.

Michael Porcelli: 01:28:07

All right, folks, thank you very much and thanks for tuning in and we'll. Yes. Robbie's got one more thing to say.

Robbie Carlton: 01:28:12

Yeah. So, yeah, so the podcast, you can find it on any podcast player, the sane and miraculous. And it's also.

You can find it on Substack atpod of lions.substack.com I hope porch will put a link in there in the description of this episode. So, yeah, I would love to hear. You can get in touch with me from on that subject. So I'd love to hear from folks if they have thoughts.

Michael Porcelli: 01:28:36

I love Robbie's stuff. Please go check it out and thank you until next time.

Robbie Carlton: 01:28:40

All right, thank you.

Michael Porcelli: 01:28:41

Later, folks.

Relational Conversations is the official podcast of Meta, relating an innovative approach to communicating effectively and about your relationships, whether personal or professional.

If you've enjoyed this episode, please rate review and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and check out our resources, training courses and events@metarelating.com this podcast was produced and edited by me, Michael Borcelli, founder of Metarelating. Thank you for listening and stay connected for more.